"Remember the dwarves and the dancers? The quarrel of gossips? Politics blood and shit? The monasteries the monks are poor while the rich? The four aces against Craxi Di Pietro? Was him, he always, the powerful finance minister socialist, Rino Formica. When you smash the all socialists Psi riaccasarono. Who chased voters, found seats with Berlusconi. Who chose the story, sat down in the narrow spaces offered by the PDS. He disappeared . It is these studies. There is more to elections. He stopped voting, or nearly so. And the interviews: nothing, or almost. He came out first and did not enter the Second Republic. "Forgotten your family Socialist did not feel the need to enter another. In 1992 I had made a desperate attempt to give convincing Craxi Welcome to the secretariat. Welcome but collapsed. The pressures were strong. "
From whom?
" outside. "
mean?
" A complex world. "
What do you mean?
"You can not say."
Why?
"Well, that phase was terminated with the liquidation of the PSI. "
international forces ...
" When a small power is the policy of a great power in times of difficulty of the powerful can find space. But when the powerful can make you pay, making your final pay. "
A socialist where to go? Stefania is on the right, left ... Bobo
" I have never criticized those gone here or there. It was a moment of heel. Who has found a home, who the shed, who very well ... a villa. Stay where you call the belly or intelligence. But not manipulated history ".
Who are you thinking?
" A Giuliano Amato ... It 's a manipulator of the story ... It' s also the only socialist who is used intermittently and rate in Pd. You know why? Because everyone knows that in Psi Amato had less than two trump.
You said you're a liar ...
"It 's the truth. An example. At the famous meeting of the secretariat, that of four aces against Di Pietro Amato was there. Intervened on his face as Di Pietro. The next day he wrote a violent attack on Scalfari Amato because he had participated in the work of the secretariat while being prime minister. Amato phoned me: "I have to do a retraction. I will say that I did not participate in the work which has been discussed by Di Pietro."
He asked complicity?
"Exactly. He said, 'You're the only one who could break my balls. Can I make this statement? "I told him:" Do it, that's great for me. "And he did."
tacesti And you ...
"Until he began to say that he did not know this, did not know that. He did not know anything."
did not know the system of bribes ...
"As a part of a family where he got a salary of one thousand euro a month but we live at a rate of 2 000 € a day."
Even you knew ...
"But of course, right?"
But Amato denied ...
"Why was not an organic intellectual. He was hired. A professional. Basically a taxi driver."
Did you say 'never stands still, there is only dancing ... "
"It 's known that the Mediaset-saving decree he did."
What Craxi rekindled by which the Berlusconi's TV ...
"Two things are. Or have you done on commission and say," Oh well, I do not give anything, I have ordered a package and I delivered ... "
taxi driver ... The intellectual
"Or say," I put my belief. I defended and will defend it. "
But do not defend ...
"He has worked with Craxi, has inspired Craxi Craxi claimed with the doctrine and knowledge. "
After the death of Craxi have said:" I do not leave the field open to repent talkative. "
" Former Communists ".
Repent talkative?
"D'Alema, President of the Council, offered to make a state funeral."
So what?
"After what had made him ... after having prevented from caring in Italy ... "
How could D'Alema him back in Italy to care? He was a fugitive.
"A strong government could solve this problem. It was enough to cure a decree to do in Milan."
The state funeral there were.
"Bobo and Stephen would not. It was a very serious mistake. He covered the contradiction."
Craxi Why not return? Maximum two days in jail ...
"When the end of 1993 there was the certainty that there would be a hail of enforcement action, I asked myself the question Craxi:" We all have a duty to stay here. The flash goes off. You return to greater serenity of the assessment. "
What Craxi said?
" For I can not resist an unjust act. I will go away. "
You have tried to convince him?
" I told him: "You make a big mistake. In the community that we loved him and against yourself." "
he will not listen.
" Craxi had a great need for air and freedom. The very idea of \u200b\u200bbeing closed would have been fatal. "
You inventasti dwarfs and dancers .
"The national assembly."
You were not.
"It's not just me. All the left, Master's head. But when we voted, there was unanimity." Craxi explained: "It 'been easy, I gave him twenty seats".
Today there is a danger of authoritarianism?
"Dictatorship is the most hard, most ruthless of the sacredness of politics. "
So what?
"What Berlusconi's party is a jar, a container, such as Veltroni.
So what?
"The leader of a party can be immune from the dictatorship: he himself is the great policy of the sacred pickaxe. Fa" cuckoo "Merkel ... Can you imagine the dictator?".
Recently you argue with Bassanini. Have you defined Craxi and if he is taken. He says he was london.
"so Lombardy in '79 had been a government program of Bettino. It was argued alle elezioni dai craxiani. I lombardiani sostenevano Cicchitto".
La sede e l'utenza del telefono della corrente lombardiana di Roma erano pagate da Licio Gelli...
"E' vero. E non mi risulta che il lombardiano Bassanini avesse mai preso le distanze da questa faccenda".
La corrente lombardiana, la più a sinistra, in casa di Gelli?
"Il problema è Signorile."
Cioè?
"Era simpaticamente disinvolto..."
So what?
"I do not want to reopen controversy with him."
Behind lombardiani was Gelli?
"Gelli Gelli was not behind ... it was a clever speculator."
the P2 ...
"The P2 had a cover. It served, at the suggestion of the services Born, not to do, nobody notices the existence of a clandestine network, a club, where members were all heads of services. Something subversive. It was a drittone Gelli.
But then the P2 is broken ...
"Only when they heard that America was beginning to stink, that Gelli had a swelled head, he wanted to put in Calvi, milk money. And she wanted to fuck the Corriere della Sera."
Behind the P2, America ...
"I have been a member of the Committee on P2. The list was also Randolph Stone, head of the CIA in Italy. Appeared as an entrepreneur. Those were heard all of the list. Except Stone. In Commission continued to say, "But we want to call Stone?"
What do you respond?
"Nothing."
And all this means ...
"What Gelli Stone put him there to guarantee that a function was taking place on their own ... How is it that this lodge has never had in his life, a meeting?"
How?
"It was a post office box."
Gelli was powerful. Appointed the senior ...
"An old Democrat trick. When he knew there was a nomination, promised to all candidates of interest. In the end, the one named, was captured forever."
There is still the P2?
"In other forms there will be one hundred thousand."
You made the name of Beelzebub ... ... Andreotti
"It was thought that the P2 was a place of national union. But he had a supra-driven."
Andreotti What does it matter?
"Andreotti knew ..."
So do not think it's the grand old man behind Gelli ...
"No, he did not drive Gelli. But there was a post office box of a place that had its own legitimacy at the international level, he knew. "
Have you called a" big polluter "...
" I was wrong. He is a great churchman. It 's the real head of government Vatican loaned to Italy. In his studio I saw a very beautiful Guttuso. There are a number of cardinals. And by the dedication: "To the Cardinal Andreotti and a cardinal figure half and half secular. Him ".
Why Cicchitto joined the P2?
" He opened the succession to Lombardi. Cicchitto Master knew that was protected from P2. "
Master of the P2 was not.
" Surely he reports. Master has always been very Levantine, "people.
plan democratic rebirth of Gelli you do not seem to Berlusconi?
" The plan is by no means a list of subversive actions. We must be honest: the revival plan is the joint plan that is the Democratic Party that Berlusconi. One day I was with Macaluso and reading a statement by the Democratic Party. Comment: "But this is the plan Gelli" "
You've always been undiplomatic. You have defined Master "stupid".
"Master is not stupid. Perhaps on occasion behaved like a fool."
Merzagora "a man not serious" ...
"What do. When I was administrative secretary of the Socialist Party wrote in an allusion that I made a speculation in securities Ferruzzi. The querelai. He did not ever give permission to proceed ... misled, wriggling. did everything to avoid going to court. He had a yacht flying the flag of Panama. "
Gaetano Scamarcio said that you had to entrust the management of even a delicatessen ...
"It was an excess of zeal on the part of the friends of Andreotti. They were looking for someone to give me part of my discomfort. Scamarcio They found".
Reviglio Franco said: "I could not get worse than a successor to the Finance ...
"I could not have a predecessor as inexperienced."
inexperienced Why?
"He was a university professor but was concerned that much of the patronage of the studies."
Do you support the publication of the wiretapping?
"What it refers to a serious responsibility to be published. But the difficult task is the reading of interceptions. And the clean up. Then we must consider the degree of sensitivity of public opinion. I do not want to make names ... but anyway when Matthew was responsible for oil ... if they had intercepted his phone calls to get the favor of the Shah ... "
The Communist Party was the big spoiler and the big intercepted, you once said ...
"The Communist Party, with the help of the unions, had his men inside telephone companies ... could hear all the calls he wanted. It was enough to combine well the shift ... "
What do you think of today's politicians?
" They have no compass. "
The compass is the ideology?
"ideology, a set of values \u200b\u200b..."
For Berlusconi ideology is an insult ...
"Berlusconi is the interpreter of underlying trends of the country. Order a survey, reads the results and adapts. In my day job policy was not know reality, but to force the course of things. Now he is behind the course of things. "
Who does not like you left?
" Processors. What makes the choice, then look for consensus. Today we have a ruling class change artist, producing transformation. Both right and left. Both Berlusconi and Veltroni.
Berlusconi know him?
"E 'come a couple of times a ministry."
You had occupied the famous Vat which is discussed so now. They say that you did a favor by allowing him Berlusconi the rate of 4%.
"In Rai, for canon, was applied to 4%. The bicameral committee of the Thirty asked the government to apply the 4% for all public and private."
What did you think of Berlusconi?
"I had known before, in 1977, a meeting of the club ANIASA. Craxi had reported it to me:" You will find a young entrepreneur from Milan, one that could also be our friend. "It made me a great impression. Long hair and lots of grease. He gave me trouble. I thought that the grease was right. "
He was right ...
"Eventually we started talking in a living room. He said," I'd like to do politics. "I asked," What would I do? ". And he said:" The minister Foreign. "When I told him to Rome to Craxi. Craxi laughed:" Who the hell is this guy? But that it is removed away. "
But then he changed his mind ... he rushed from London to do the decree that rekindled his repeater ... it seemed one of his subjects .. .
"Craxi wanted to break the patterns of information monopoly."
Berlusconi have said: "His positions change according to the conveniences."
"The aristocrats of the Savoy monarchy industrial Turin said:" What is good for Fiat is good for Italy. "Berlusconi thinks the same thing. What is good for Mediaset's good for Italy."
What do you think the laws ad personam?
"They used to say that the laws are like notes: put against the light, a watermark can be seen the head of the King."
Today we see the head of the King even if you put them against the light.
"The democratic system should resolve the issue. It would be enough clarity."
Example?
"They should say:" We bring to Parliament that those acts that constitute a case of judicial persecution. "The liberal society had solved this problem. The prima persecutionis was the reason which is not giving permission to proceed. But he called his name. "
Berlusconi do you like?
"It 's been an innovator. He revealed the inner soul of this country, moderate and individualistic. He highlighted Italian defects and called them virtues. "
Game of the tower. Bobo or Stephen?
" You shove them both ... "
Why?
"They do not give a good show."
mean?
"They think that Craxi was not capable of teaching."
De Michelis or Boselli?
"Boselli is modest. It 's the Communist sottoburocrazia Emilia. "
Martelli or Intini?
"Martelli one becomes attached to intelligence. And in the surgical capacity to act on facts. Intini is more schematic. It 'an old Bolshevik official. Do not throw either of them. It' already been a massacre Socialists at the hands of others. "
Visco or Tremonti?
"D'Alema, when told that Visco was doing a fiscal policy against the workers, said:" Visco against Operario that is both against the industry. E 'against all. "A Visco lacks the political vision. Tremonti is open to the new. If one does not know, penserebbe che Tremonti è di sinistra e Visco è di destra..."
Tremonti di sinistra?
"Strutturalmente di sinistra. Ha la capacità di essere raffinatamente doppio".
Mentana o Vespa?
"Mentana ha una sua capacità creativa. Butto Vespa. Porta a porta potrebbe essere il Bignami della politica. Invece è Novella 2000".
Mieli o Mauro?
"Tutti e due hanno sulla coscienza il fatto di aver partecipato al falò dei socialisti. Ma butto Mauro perché is the most anti-socialist. "
Republic or Courier?
" Il Corriere and anthologies. Maintains a baseline of realistic inspiration. Republic is out of season. It 'the only major newspaper in Italy that manages to be nostalgic appearing innovative. Nostalgic, worse than conservative. In its pages there is a line that does not belong to strapassato.
What is the journalist who just can not stand?
"If you were to say what bothers me ... But I regret to say why ... Scalfari is short. Aging male. E' diventato insopportabile. E' di una faziosità antica. Dà un giudizio sui partiti politici secondo le esperienze di 40 anni fa. Secondo i suoi riconoscimenti o i torti o gli insuccessi che coltivò allora".
Sarà mica innamorato ancora di De Mita...
"Sicuramente no. Ma non ha mai detto una parola sull'errore di quell'innamoramento. Lui è ancora al punto che De Mita è bravo perché cercava di fregare Craxi".
Perché Scalfari ce l'aveva con Craxi?
"Perché era quello che voleva essere lui. Il segretario del Psi".
Rino Formica
La Stampa 09/12/2008
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